in a comment over in the “the wicker man/spirited away” thread mark posted some interesting stuff about more “amoral” japanese horror vs. the christian ethic of the average american horror film. i think this might deserve its own thread and so am cutting and pasting the relevant portion of mark’s comments here.
What I did discover that interested me was the lack of morals of the spirits and whom they choose to reward and punish. This didn’t come up much in Spirited Away – for example the girl’s parents are turned into pigs not out of some god’s whim, but b/c they dared to eat food that belonged to someone else. They “sinned.†In the Japanese ghost story books I read, it seemed punishments were meted out for no good reason; that the spirits were simply mischievous, weren’t judging based on sin, and in some cases couldn’t even be classified as “thinking†(which reminded me of the Cthuhlu mythos, where the malevolence is pure, and the monsters aren’t even really capable of rational thought.)
Then I read something quite interesting – an article by a right wing Christian group (apologies to right wing Christians on here, like Bruns) about the rise in Japanese horror movies like The Ring and The Grudge. The author said these movies were much worse than American horror movies, because people were killed for no reason. In US horror, he maintained, people got killed who had done something wrong; they were promiscuous, had stolen, etc. – they had sinned – and that the characters who were pure of heart would prevail. I didn’t see either US version of Ring or Grudge but saw the Japanese versions of both, and I have to admit, he has a point. The moral guidelines of US horror don’t apply in these movies where you get killed for something as simple as enetering a house or watching a video. It’s a very non-Christian ethic, I think, and interesting as such.
i suppose we could come up with american exceptions but generally speaking this seems to be accurate (i don’t know enough about japanese horror to know if it holds up there). strangely enough despite gigantic annual film production i don’t think there really is an established horror genre in india. the ramsay brothers were known for cheesy horror films in the 70s (of the haunted house variety) but there really isn’t enough to make a genre. it is tempting to speculate that this might be because hindu mythology is so replete with supernatural stories that indians don’t feel the need for horror as a genre–in other words, does horror function at least partly in the western judeo-christian context to make up for a relatively unimaginative spiritual narrative? it is interesting to note while pondering this hypothesis that there really is no science-fiction genre in india either. hmmm.
I was actually wondering about that, so I’m glad you brought it up (I didn’t bring it up myself, because I wasn’t sure if you were aware that you were Indian (with apologies to Native American Injuns, like Bruns)).
Arnab, so there aren’t horror films as genre films in India, but do the Hindu myths play supporting roles in other kinds of Indian films? Do gods, spirits or ghosts appear as more of a natural occurance in romances or comedies or action films?
And – if I may say so – what a great idea; to have supernatural elements in a film that is not necessarily a supernatural film. I’m trying to think if there are any examples of this, and the thing that is coming to mind is a strange Icelandic film from several years ago that had Lili Taylor in it. It was a “road” movie, but may have had some supernatural scenes in it.
outside of a few stray film-makers there’s no clear genre, no. keep in mind my knowledge doesn’t extend far past the bombay hindi industry–god knows what happens in all the other language cinemas (many of which are gigantic in their own right). there was (and probably still is) the genre of the mythological film but gods, ghosts, and spirits don’t show up as such in regular movies anymore. a cliche in action movies and dramas through the 80s was divine intervention in the form of flowers falling from statues of gods etc. to signal approval and so on. the average bollywood film already mixes genres to such a staggering degree that it is probably not surprising that, with the possible recent exception of neo-noir films about the bombay underworld, no real genres have developed in the clear-cut ways that they did over pretty much the same period of time in hollywood. then again i may be overstating the case.
Some interesting points. A few stray comments:
–Arnab’s Indian?
–There is certainly a deep strong strain of the judgmental in American horror, and perhaps that is Judeo-Christian in its provenance. But one could–skipping over the slasher films, which seemed to have cemented a more fixed ‘you-done-wrong-now-wrong-will-be-carved-into-you’ ethos in horror over the last 30 years–make the case that much American horror is actually a terror about the past, rising up to get us. From Poe forward, really, history is a deep, irrational, terrifying force. (And, pretty obviously, for many cases that history is a repressed history of slavery, genocide, you name it.)
I think it’s really worth it to pursue and examine serious American counter-examples. “Texas Chainsaw,” “The Hills Have Eyes,” and assorted other crazies kill city folk films in the ’70s are wonderfully amoral–while the city folk are often smug, they ain’t all bad, and vice versa–who can’t be fond of grandpa and kin wanting to just put a hot meal on the table in “Chainsaw?’ Or another strong variant: Romero’s zombie films–it’s not even evil, it’s just some arbitrary alteration of the way things are, which leads to horrific results.
–For a really interesting take on the Japanese variant–check out “Charisma,” where a motiveless but methodologically repetitive string of killings erupts across Tokyo. I won’t spoil the end, but it sidesteps all sense of personal agency or sin, while also seeming to offer a more invidious critique of Japanese culture, generally. (I read an interesting article, can’t remember where, trying to tie this wave of Japanese horror to the Aum Shinriyo nerve-gas poisonings–or a sense that suddenly, people for no good reason can behave reprehensibly…)
–Supernatural elements in a non-supernatural film… hmmm… I’m tempted to note “The Kingdom,” but who knows what genre that is.
Would films that have horror trappings but no monster or evil be another interesting variant? I’m thinking of bio-horror (“Andromeda Strain”) or the really cool stuff by Larry Fessenden (“Habit” or “Wendigo”) or Romero’s “Martin”?
–What about monster flicks–a seemingly-dead genre, barring the occasional dinosaur or the lousy Sci-Fi channel’s weekly z-movie renditions of the creature feature (this week: “Shelties!”)? There was a strain of the environment-done-wrong-so-monster-wreaks-revenge, but there was also stuff like blobs and black lagooon things that popped up.
–Another interesting cultural problem: read Cronenberg’s horror films as indicative of a Canadian national psychology….
Of course monster films don’t work in this case. Aren’t you paying attention? Next thing I know you’ll be citing HBO as an example.
I had thought of Texas Chainsaw and was trying to remember if it fit one model or the other. I just dont recall enough details. My guess is that something the city-folk did – even something small – will be considered enough of a “sin” to warrant retribution.
Other notes: zombie movies are never about the zombies – only about the interpersonal relationships between the survivors.
Now, here you finally said something interesting:
Give some examples please, besides saying “Poe.” I like that idea of our history as horror, especially given America’s current preoccupation with ignoring history outright or re-writing it, if forced to acknoweldge it. (FOX news re-writing an FDR speech about Soc Sec. and Bush admin. moving back the date of the US recession so it falls in Clinton’s admin. … even though in Bush 2000 campaign he never mentioned a recession once.)
As for The Kingdom: Good exmaple. But wrong. The Kingdom is a horror film at heart with some soap opera laid on top.
Japanese film “Charisma” is interesting also. -and further reminds me of the Japanese film “Suicide Club” in which teenagers begin committing suicide. The film tries to be a cop film, which is funny, b/c there is no crime. No one is responsible. something in mass media might be causing it, but it doesn’t appear to be purposeful, and in the end, the cops just give up and the suicides keep happening. I thought that was a great film by the way.
mauer, must i keep editing all your fucking posts to fix your formatting?
Mike’s suggestion that American horror is about the terror of the past returning to get us–that history is a deep, irrational, terrifying force and horror narratives tap into that collective guilt/fear–makes sense. But if this argument holds true, where are all of British horror films (talk about your terrifying history of oppression and tyranny). I was thinking of Vincent Price’s House of Blood with all of its Shakespeare allusions but that is an American production.
jeff, let me pre-empt mike’s response: the english, whatever else they’ve repressed, have not repressed their history. (mike, as you know, lives by freud.) instead they fetishize it (a character in “the satanic verses” says they don’t understand their history because it happened overseas)–ever seen the orgiastic display of colonial loot in the london museums? they’re proud of it! and by “they” i of course mean our own pete.
1. Past as Horror: Since you don’t seem to know Poe (he’s an American writer of some import)–“Session 9”. Maybe “Amityville Horror,” but especially “The Haunting” (the good one), and other haunted house narratives. (And, yes, there is usually an explanatory origin–but it is usually irrelevant. The best films–“Haunting” and maybe “The Shining”–have houses that have deep histories but no clear reason for their malevolence.) “Curse of the Cat People.” Lots of the Poe adaptations (see above for who Poe is). Ummmm…. I know there are others, but either Max or I just shit ourselves, and stinks. It clouds the mind.
2. Pete’s English?
Oh–and I don’t think sinfulness and one mistake can be considered equivalent. If in “Chainsaw” the kids make an error, and it can be said they do (with a hitchhiker), it’s not a deep abiding moral judgment on original sinfulness that strikes them. (Unlike, say, “Friday the 13th” where sex = death.) Instead, the moral judgment makes no real sense–and, further, the judgers are themselves deeply flawed–not avenging angels like Jason, but a messed-up family, and who among us doesn’t have a messed-up family?
Thankfully, this time it was Max that crapped his own pants.
A couple more notes:
–John Carpenter’s movies kind of show all of these strains. “Halloween” fits the Puritan approach to horror. But “The Fog” is about history, rising up. Sure the town “sinned” against these now-zombie fishermen, and sure it was greed, but… the sin isn’t much explained, again, and the vengeance is so brutal and all-encompassing, that I think it works better as a “paying-for-history” horror film.
His “Thing” is a monster movie–but, again, I think monster movies fit, and here is a great example–the monster becomes everyone, and/or everyone is the monster.
And “Prince of Darkness” is his British horror film–it’s a Quatermass movie, translated to LA.
–Another monster movie as example of historical horror: “The Birds.” I think you could read the rise of the birds as an allegory of racial, environmental, cultural destruction rebounding back on the descendants …
–Arnab is right about the English. Especially Pete.
–Cronenberg, since no one bit: Canadians fear the constant intrusions of America and American culture–hence his persistent anxieties about bodily borders and boundaries falling open to invaders, intrusions–or just to bodies erupting against us.
I need to see “Suicide Club”–where did you get it, Mark?
re “texas chainsaw massacre”–try viewing it as a tale about ecology.
REYNOLDS: “Oh–and I don’t think sinfulness and one mistake can be considered equivalent.” What bible are you reading? Me – I’ve eaten shellfish once, and I know that I will burn in hell for eternity because of it. One of the things I like about the horror film equation of “minor sin = death and eternal damnation” is the correlation to the Old Testament capricious Yahweh (apologies to Orthodox Jews here, like Bruns).
Americans love punishment for sins much more than history. I think this is clearly reflected in our horror movies.
I stand corrected on Poe. Obviously, just saying his name in your first post was a BRILLIANT argument for your half-baked idea.
For a brief second I thought you were right about “The Fog.” Then I realized you were utterly wrong. The Fog is purely about sin. The townspeople caused the ship to wreck, killing the sailors, and they looted the ship. Even better, the offspring are being punished for the sins of the forefathers. You can’t get more Torah Torah Torah than that! Mike, you brilliantly proved my original thesis that American horror films are based on retribution for sins.
Arnab – yes, the blockquote cite is killing me. Thank you for fixing them. I will use blockquote no more, forever.
Reynolds – Suicide Club. I got it at Video Journeys. According to Mapquest it’s a 1999.9 miles southwest of you. On Glendale.
On “The Fog”:
Ebert — “The narrative background in “The Fog” is presented stylishly – John Houseman of “The Paper Chase” tells a ghost story around a campfire on the beach, little kids listen with their mouths hanging open, we learn that shipwrecked sailors were murdered near this town a century ago, and that they vowed to return 100 years later. And, of course, tonight’s the night.
But when the sailors’ ghosts return, wrapped in fog, we can’t figure out what their motives are. Do they want to kill the descendants of their murderers? Are they angry at the town itself? Are they indeed there in the fog, or are their victims hallucinating?”
Dull readers may, indeed, see them as retributive. But smart, savvy readers will of course not be fooled. Their malevolence is, like Mauer’s, inexplicable.
Texas Chainsaw Massacre and the like are in some ways about the sinfulness of city dwellers–particularly teenagers who, of course, reek of sexual sin. The city indulges itself in every vice, while country folk are left to the “idiocy of rural life” that actually affects them both physically and mentally. their killing of hapless city folk who trespass on their farms and homes is a perverse revenge. of course, city life is frequently affiliated with “sinfulness” generally–the best film I know that is a counter-attack by the city on the corruption and sinfulness of “country life” is the great weird gangster/comedy Prime Cut (also by Michael Ritchie who was praised elsewhere).
Arnab said:
I don’t know Indian film well enough–but fiction: Amitav Ghosh’s _The Calcutta Chromosome_ seems both spooky and sci-fi? It won the Arthur Clarke award and (for much of the novel) is nominally set in the future; its horror elements play not unlike “The Wicker Man” with the trope of ancient societies lingering on and consuming the modern…
And it does so in a sly satirical take on cross-cultural transformations and globalization. Good novel.
As to sin…. hmmm. Well, sure. Okay. Name a generic convention, and then play spot it everywhere in the films we can discuss. I guess what I’d suggest is that it is not the only–nor even the most fulfilling or apt–way to read American horror. For one, in the American context it’s too stark a division; in America, we’re all sinners, in the meathook-hand of an angry zombie fisherman. And, hell, I think we could make a good case that every American genre is about sin. It’s like spotting a Walmart in an American town; yes, it tells us something about American culture, but, no, the omnimpresence of Walmart should not entirely erase distinctions between towns or regions. What other stories can we tell about American horror?
And I think we already hit on a few good examples, so I’ll wait for the next topic.
mike, “the calcutta chromosome” is 1 of maybe 1.5 indian science-fiction novels. i exaggerate, but only slightly. it is a great read though. i’m surprised an american studio hasn’t bought the rights, transferred the location to prague and whipped out a 3 part movie version starring johnny depp.
there are distinctions between american towns and regions? oh, you mean like the starbucks have different specials?